EP15 - Hines Pool & Spa - ESOP Experience with Andy Hines

On this podcast episode, we interview Andy Hines - founder of Hines Pool and Spa from Austin, TX. Hines Pool and Spa is an excellent example of a successful approach to an ESOP transaction.  Andy shares his experience with researching ESOPs in relation to Private Equity.  Like many companies, Andy found that the ESOP was a better alternative for not just the company, but for himself and his family. Andy shares some of the lessons he learned early in the process, providing some practical tips for those on their own journey to an ESOP. 

Transcript

[0:13] Hey everyone thanks for joining today this is the journey to an ESOP and Beyond podcast where we talk about Employee Stock ownership plans and what goes into all of that as far as you looking into it and saying this is either right for me or not right for me. Uh this episode today I think will be a good 1 for those that are considering an ESOP. That have it net yet chosen or um are knowing somebody that really is thinking about this because we're going to get to interview. Uh a company that's actually went through the whole process and lived to tell about it and to do that we're going to interview Andy Hines Who is the former owner of well I actually still own part of Hines Pool and Spa right because we did a partial lease up for you guys correct so Andy thank you and Welcome to our podcast. Thank you I'm honored to be here and excited to share my experience. Awesome so let's let's kick off with this as we do traditionally tell us kind of who what is your favorite movieand why. Well I was I was I was um tempted to tell you the Godfather which is a great movie but there's 1 that was a movie that was a little bit more meaningful to me and it's called Zorba the Greek. And it was Anthony Quinn in my best rooms ever and it's a it's a story of resilience.

[1:31] Uh through hardship so check it out I love it you know what I never seen it I've never seen it so thank you for the movie tip um and you have to be a bit resilient right to be in business and you have to be a bit resilient to go through the ESOP process so to kind of segue into that what made you decide to go and play stock ownership plan for your company what what were the main main things.

[1:55] Interesting it's always been on my heart that I wanted to leave uh the company to those who helped get me where I'm at. But what I think started it was all the private Equity companies coming to me wanting to uh. Uh to buy the company um and uh you know showing these spreadsheets that had. You know 7 digit numbers there about you know how successful we could be I just got a picture of the corporate world that would really turned me off and uh it's it's a, I'd say I think personally it's aa a plan to to its there's not a lot of value uh uh value added to to what VCS do and I have I'm and by the way I'm very excited to be an ESOP and I've got 70 employees now that I'm.

[2:56] Helping remind that their owners now this company and you know I II uh. Cannot wait to watch them run away with this company and make it really successful. Yeah which which is part of that whole reason like you really wanted to help your employees get to another level and and but you're saying basically too experiencing private Equity started making you think about hey what am I gonna do with my company yeah, and then add to that, I'm looking for an exit I'm just 65 and and I'm a tired 65 year old so uh 65 years Young if you know Andy you're the youngest person I know honestly you're you're really excited for life and you know you enjoy what you're doing. Well thank you thank you but it is it's a good exit and I'm I'm I'm you know you know my retirement is getting funded nicely and and so, and I'm excited to watch this thing growhow how long did it take like from the time you were kind of being called on by private equity, to the time you actually made the decision to become an ESOP company or go start the ESOP process how long was that for you how how was that a couple years or that was probably 90 days. Okay 90 days okay so that's pretty quick.

[4:14] So it kind of started you thinking um and then you're like I I gotta move start moving to this process and I know like our story We interacted with you guys after you were with another advisor um talk to me a little bit about the experience of investigating the world of esops as far as like you know what did you did you go to like conferences or how did you actually first start to kind of get engaged with the world of esops it first started probably about 8 or ten years ago when I I I wanted to do it then and I didn't talk to any experts but I really got the impression that this was ayou know, look very expensive um uh transition and I just couldn't afford it then maybe we weren't big enough at the time I'm not certain but um the price tag scared me away, makes sense and it does a lot of people really I mean I've seen that still happen in the in the world of ESOP but.

[5:13] Yeah so so 90 days The Saga wanted to do it I you know did my Google search and uh you know found a company and and hired them and I. Then in in in my back ask for its way of doing thingsI started listening to your podcast. And learning the in depth what the ESOP was, and I noticed very quickly what I was not getting from this other provider I mean I they would send me these these forms to fill out and I hadn't a clue how to answer any of the questions. Right it was kind of like here's here's all our stuff fill it out and we'll get back to you when you're doneand and I so and there was really very little.

[6:01] Desire in their part to sort of walk me through these questions and what what I learned uh. From what you and Birmingham Hopkins do that you know you're you're you're you're you're spoon feeding it and you're walking people through a very complicated transaction that they've never dealt with before so and I needed that I I.

[6:22] Um I'm not 1 that necessarily is going to delve into the minutiae of of of all the data points required but I like good advisors. Yep no I appreciate that I told you you can flatter us all you want we love that and um it was a great experience for us too and.

[6:42] I think part of the story is is sometimes people get into I I'll give you kind of my own analogy like for my own personal life they get into a situation where they they. Engage somebody professionally to do something. And then just just not working out right and so for me we engaged uh because we live in in Nevada now but we engaged a uh an an architect. And um to build the house or to design the house and honestly they they.

[7:11] I'm doing kind of the opposite of what I'm telling seeing right now we actually went all the way and it was just it was a terrible experience it was terrible like it took us forever to get anything done, um the Builder that he recommended we we had to like fire them and we had to go to another Builder and then we had to fire that Builder so it was a nightmare and so I say all that because I think sometimes people think they hire somebody and they should stay with them and if you're not I think the big thing is like if you're not comfortable with somebody you got a long process and you have to really trust the advisor at I think at the highest levels so so yes it may be warm and fuzzy maybe it's just hey logically something's not adding up correctly but we've done we have seen that a lot in the in the world of esops like people saying you know this is not I don't feel good about this let me disengage and re-engage somebody else um and it may feel like a waste of time but you're way better off doing that than going through that my architect story because it was 4 years of of of honestly a nightmare. But it worked eventually and I learned a lot I learned 1 thing which is what I'm saying don't stay with somebody that you're not comfortable with yeah yeah you know.

[8:19] So so I'm I'm excited and I told you a long time ago like I was excited to get to meet you through the podcast and someday I'd love to put you on the podcast and thank you for agreeing to to do this because I think it's super helpful for peopleum so let's let's kind of walk through like what are the things that you know early on in the process of of looking at your ESOP um some of the things that like stuck out to you that you're like oh wow if I had known that in planning what so what sort of things would you have done differently and and um how would you have kind of reassessed those things again for your particular journey to an ESOP. I would have done more research before I hired someone, um I would have familiarized myself with this play you know you're you're a a podcast is a great place to start but there's other places also so I would have just researched some more um because it was on my heart I knew I wanted to do it it provided a good exit um I just. Could have saved myself some steps and some some money had I slowed down and and uh researched. Yeah totally I I totally agree with that and sometimes I mean 90 days to be honest with you is a pretty fast.

[9:33] Approached I mean I've seen people look at this for years and do. You know I mean I have I've seen the opposite to be honest with you I've seen people not ever make a decision on it and you're like all right or are we done analysis you know beyond analysis and like here it is and every. Fashion of way we could analyze it so but keeping that in mind I mean there is an amount of research that is helpful how how much did you involve to like keep people in your in the people that you got comfortable with and your side of things because obviously we were your advisor but how how how much did you involve other people in the process of.

[10:10] Not not you know they knew about it they knew it's something that I wanted to do um but I I didn't involve them until you know later on in the process and actually um mostly you know now that it's completed I I've got you know assigned an administrator of the ESOP and um we've we've got the uh, communication uh committee uh developing it's not quite there yet um but they they I brought them along later on in in the process.

[10:44] Yeah so going into the I guess the first part of the of the process itself um, you have to go through and figure out what the value is you have to go through and figure out how you're going to structure it um as far as financing goes and in your case you took a a seller note back so you basically, you as the shareholder took all the financing um and then going into that then you basically have we have to bring on the trustee in the in the valuation firm and all that to get ready for you know the presentation that we would have um in that first couple of steps of bringing people in, um what sort of experience was that for you was it kind of pretty pretty exactly what you expected or was there any kind of thing in there that you're like oh I didn't know that was going to happen, yeah so mergers and Acquisitions think like that is new to me what I didn't realize is we you know we have 2 we have a buyer and we have a seller and so. That takes very different uh advisors and I hired you as the sales side advisor. Um and then the the trustee that we eventually chose. Became the buy side and I just ignorant me just wasn't quite aware of of how uh that mechanism worked. So so you know and that there would be a negotiation back and forth uh uh to to figure out the the the final valuation.

[12:13] 1 1 of the things that like happens on us with every deal really is at some point you start getting your key people involved you know and your case you know I know we had a couple different people from your your key people group what was it like for you how how did you go about kind of communicating what what you're thinking about that because I get that question from a lot of people in the process of like when should I talk to my key people. What should I tell them um is this something that they're gonna like be excited about or is this something they're not going to really be excited about so what was your experience with that. It was um I I wear my heart on my sleeve so people know you know where I'm coming from typically pretty easily um but it was exciting for me you know I I was presenting a, uh a scenario to them that that would.

[13:05] Would make owners of all the employees and so it was exciting for me to share thatyeahand they they embraced that for. What they were they were thinking they wanted to do for their future career right so they did but I have I have to confess there were there was a there was a hiccup when when the private Equity companies were first coming after me um, I was smitten. I was okay this is oh this is it and I brought smitten this to my uh Management Group. And uh you could have heard a pin drop they were none too impressed uh really really okay so I've heard about this a lot from different companies right so when the key people get involved and they're like oh no what what was the, well this was keep in mind this was when when I was talking about VCS. That's right yeah yeah private Equity yeah actually my staff educated me on you know what what the sum of the true nature. Of private Equity is and that's what got me on my 90-day decision we're doing ESO. Yeah that's interesting I honestly have heard that other from other companies once the key people know what you're thinking.

[14:20] And they're like well I mean I guess if you put it from their perspective they're probably thinking hey do I want to work for a private Equity or do I want to keep doing what I'm doing in part of thatdid they feel like do you feel like they felt like it was a more not just because of there's less disruption to their life but more of an opportunity for an ESOP because I think some cases private Equity can say hey we're going to you're going to make a lot more money under this model than you were before. Yeah amen but but but hello making a lot more money wasn't my that was way down the listof what I wanted to achieve, with this and what, they they understood private equity in a way I didn't before I you know and and so they educated me on on how.

[15:07] 1 we have a great culture always have had a good culture I've developed that it's if I have a forte it's it's the care and seeding of my most important asset and that's my you know my partners my employees my fellow company owners. Um and they understood that the the corporate world would destroy that in in in quick time. Yeah probably almost immediately I would agree with that like there's it's a financial decision it's a financial transaction and its Financial all the way right there's not there's not any in between of that like it's been as many times as people might say oh yeah yeah there it doesn't happen that way so so obviously that was really important to you right to retain the culture um the what you built go back to the beginning like how did you start your company when you were like whatI was I was 26 years old 26 years old wow 1986. And I just I was in the pool business um and I was working for a guy who's I did not at all get along with his wife and. Uh so I finally just just quit and I was still going to to college and uh working uh.

[16:17] And uh a friend of my father's had a pool that he needed cleaning uh cleaned and so uh.

[16:26] For 20 bucks a week I had date money back then in 1980 I love it and uh so I I loaded a poll in my um Toyota Celica. And so you know testing equipment some cleaning equipment and uhthat was my that was my start. Beautiful like that's I think that's always fun to talk about too because when you go from 26 years old to you said you were 65 Young. Right that's a lot of years to build a business right and and and it has to be and I'm saying this kind of like as a loaded question but it has to be something difficult to say now I'm going to take my my baby in a sense and say all right now I'm going to move it into a new a new phase of life which is I'm letting somebody else take over this right so so even emotionally psychologically how did that play into the process even going through ESOP too that might have been um a bit stressful for you you know that all changed on my roll out and Diana also from Burman Hopkins. I I'd always I'd recommend that you get someone to help with the roll out because it's for me it was very emotional. Mhm yeah you want someone that can throw out some facts and some figures.

[17:42] Um and she did that quite well but what I realized in that roll out was that this was my legacy and I had not seen it. In quite the perspective that I did in that roll out wow so I was the most fundamentally changed after the roll out was me.

[18:04] And B Because keep in mind the roll out is introductory you know you're you're throwing out ESOP and employee owned and all these. The ideas that are completely foreign to your your your employee base. And so there's usually confusion and questions when they walk out and there's a sense of excitement you know we gave him some swag and we you know it was it was a great event but I was the most powerfully impacted on the roll out. Um and uh uh so yeah I I learned about my legacy in life and that was this, that's awesome I I have gone to several a lot of rollout meetings in my time in esops but I've seen grown men cry.

[18:50] I did which is great to be honest you like I don't I don't want to make it into like this you know but of course because it's what I think what happens too I mean is you just realize. In moments like I don't I didn't you know because Kenny just go day day you do your month to month year to year and you're like this thing's super important to you and and it's not just the company what is the company it's the people, right and, it it is an appropriate in my opinion and appropriate response to what your legacy is and knowing like that that will go on into the future.

[19:26] Yeah and not be like you know so so you know sometimes I've seen a lot of different you know types of things but I do see that as aa thing where people don't spend the time to really take in and reflect.

[19:41] That this is actually an important thing and this is 1 of the reasons I think eventually people do gravitate to an ESOP because it's like yes that's way more meaningful to me as a business owner than um what I thought was more meaningful right so it kind of helps that process of sifting out. When we talk about the roll out we do you know I always like to tell people what what that is in case they have no idea the rollout meeting is usually the meeting that happens literally after the closing of the ESOP the transaction so everything's official everything's done, everything's been signed and then um it's time to tell the employees. Like and so your case you have 70 people how did you like you just bring everybody together did you do like a big employee party meeting or or what did you it's important I mean we had we had no alcohol there but we were at a Mexican food restaurant with some nice appetizers. Um and uh. You know I kicked it off with you know the story of how I developed the business and why I decided to go uh in this uh Direction. And uh umit was. It's really nice that's cool and then and then then I probably spoke for about 30 minutes and uh. Uh then Diana for about 25 minutes and then after that we had the managers go have a nice dinner um.

[21:06] Uh and we we you know sort of you know Consolidated the the uh the you know what had happened uh earlier and got managers all together with their spouse.

[21:16] Oh that's really that's really cool that's a great way to do it and everybody can do that kind of differently but it just gets it gets the ball rolling it gets everybody like up to speed what was the in your opinion what was the impression of the employees out at the meeting itself like what what was their response. I think they were they were touched they didn't all walk out understanding what the heck it just had happened but they were touched because of my genuine in my emotional and uh you know they they knew before but they certainly knew after that that I loved and cared for them and, best. Yeah no I mean that's you know it's it's always going to be a little different and I think some sometimes people look at am I a good industry for esops and I I kind of shudder from that question in a sense like. Honestly almost any industry is good like I know CPA firms that are esops I know um you know obviously a lot of contractors that are esops I know distributor I mean just a lot of different types of it's not the industry I think it's really about the culture, you know and sometimes I think cultural fits are, obviously you guys are perfect for that considering what you just told us but it is important that I think your culture aligns well with an ESOP.

[22:31] Yeah in you know it's not it's not for everyone absolutely not uh and I respect that um but but what esops do um is build communities. And uh it keeps money localand uh it does such.

[22:50] Positive things to the people who are others now it's a long-term play I mean you know 1's going to get rich overnight uh in an ESOP but over 15 years, you know here's here's what I tell my guys I say here my whole point is I want you to have 2 bags of cash when you retire 1 from your 401 which I helped fund and 1 from your ESO, and what I want that Esau bad to be is a life-changing amount of money for your retirement.

[23:19] Absolutely if I tell them get the hell to work it's up to you to do this yeah as my dad would say that's a beautiful thing, so and it really can be um and and I but I think that 1 1 idea and then I say this to people all the time you know like go back to your story, at 26 with a Toyota Celica and 1 account right to now, how long does it take to build value in a business it takes a long time so if you are going to be there at a company for an that that's ESOP own it's going to take a long time and there's a lot of reasons behind that but the I think that being able to be really careful about how you communicate that because it's like as much as we talk about it we want to say yeah it's great but it's a long-term benefit plan and it's a retirement plan you know it's a retirement plan like you know. You know not to be too boring but that's basically what it is but you get the value of the business over long to your period of time that you you know I the other side is is like look you get not only that but the guy the government's helping you.

[24:20] Because the government our government and the the IRS is giving you money, not you personally but in the company that translates to more value quicker because that additional cash pays the debt down quicker and your the value goes up quicker. You didn't have that ability because you were running the company as a private privately owned company, so that's 1 distinguishing member or part of being an ESOP that's and I and I call that the wind at our back you know that is you know not only are you you've got people who your job is to. Help remind them that they are owners and they act differently.

[25:00] Yeah they act differently and so you've got that Wendy you're back and then Uncle Sam and with the tax breaks is more wind at your back so it's just a nice opportunity for success, mhm yeah over timenow 1 of 1 of the things about your situation is you you do have um, your son that works in the company who I think was fairly young or is fairly young yeah um so this the reason I bring this whole thing up is because there are like how do you work this out to where I have a family. In the business already but I also want to do an ESOP and and how does that all kind of merge together were there any particular issues that you had against the ESOP because you had a son in the company or, how did you wrestle through that and do you feel like it's worked out well for him it it it. We'll see how it works out for yougoodbut I made a point a brief I pointed him out in the the roll out meeting and I said this is my son. And guess where he is he's in the warehouse that's right yeah warehouse and he's going to be there till he climbs his own ladder to bring him upstairs. That that wasI wanted to make sure that everyone else knew that there's no giveaways in this you're going to earn your keep or.

[26:19] Find another jobyeah and I think that says a lot about your culture anyways you know sometimes family members you know in a company.

[26:28] Don't take that they don't give them the kids the time to to build their own value in the business and they they kind of just inject that like you get an automatically and I think that's dangerous you know and and I've seen we've all seen it if we are really honest like it's a dangerous thing. It is because you're giving something to them that they should be earningwhen you earn something you value it in a much different way than when it's a given to you. Absolutely yeah yeah there's no and there's no easy road to success really when you get down to it and if it is an easy Road you really. It probably won't last because you don't you're not going to be willing to to fight for it when times get tough times will get tough we we all know that I mean every every year we are like oh what's happened this year you know there's always something happening um we live in a great country and we have a lot of opportunity in this country so um but we also have challenges in you know when when you get down to it the team's got to work together what 1 of the things that you said and I think this is important too because people are contemplating, you know part of their whole list of things like I'm thinking about doing an ESOP 1 of the things on their list is the exit um. With you and this is something that I do spend a lot of time with is how much confidence do you have.

[27:43] In pulling away from you know the company which I think 1 of the flexible parts of Bop you can do this however you want but as far as your exit goes. With everything that that's been set up here how confident are you on that because I think that's a big kind of. Question mark for some people like can I can I do this and still exit my company well.

[28:06] Yeah I'm very confident about that and I I will never exit it completely you know I I consider myself a 10,000 feet so I can make my desires known at that level, and uh um and so and and that's what I do butPhilip I I'm. I will admit to you right now that my staff is running this company better than I did when I was running it. I was uh and and uh it's it's it is a what a pleasure to see I'm not offended by that I'm honored by that you know my gift was pulling the team together, and making sure they're all working in the same direction and and they're doing that and running with it. Yeah I think that is such a Healthy Outlook you know to have like I think sometimes peoplein the position that you were in which you're not now they get stuck because they don't.

[29:09] Trust people enough to run the company or they don't. You know 1 Thing even my own story it's like you know I had to like Let It Go the people that are going to take taking over my job like I used to be the CEO they're not going to do it like I was doing it.

[29:23] And to be honest it's the same story they're doing it better than I was and I'm happy about that because to be honest. They make me a lot of money by doing that right um and I don't have the the stress of it anymore right so it's but I think there is a there is a shift and and then what I'm speaking to are people out there thinking about like how do I get out of the seat that I'm sitting in that I don't want to necessarily be in anymore um and it's and it's not always. I would say black and white it does take a little faith to say you know I'm going to give that person a chance you know and sometimes you can do that quickly or sometimes it takes a little time but you got to do something because um I think the 1 of the things I might have told you this the oldest gentlemen we had as a client was 91doing a ESOP you know I'm like 91. You know it's a different Dynamic at 91 right you know.

[30:14] It's like structuring an ESOP at 91 is different than obviously being you know 65 so the point is is that that exits important, and the only reason I'm I'm this is what I'm hearing you the only reason that can happen with confidence is if you got the people the right people in the right seats exactly and then you said earlier trust and and I started this or you know probably 8 years ago when I uh.

[30:38] Hired a guy as general manager he was an you know an Insight guy I've been with me for 20 years but I hired him as general manager and over about 6 years of his first 6 years as general manager, I learned how to trust and to give up control and I begin to see as I did that. He was doing a really spectacularly good job and that made it a little easier for me to back up now. Uh pulling me into the day-to-day stuff would take a Band of Horses yeah and you got to be so much happier at that point right when you're you know, especially if if you do something for so long you're like okay I I might know how to do it really well but I am so tired of doing this if I'm honest with myself um and there's so much more to do in life right, you know do you have like a um and you and your wife are you planning a bigger. You know now that you have this settled right are you planning more and more to travel or what what's on your bucket list at this point.

[31:37] I I complicated my life with adopting a couple of foster kids so that's right yeah we're uh we're we're quite happy we're going to be in Austin we love Austin um and we'll travel absolutely we'll do do more travel um. Uh but still got some kids to get through school which uh it's been nothing but a blessing actually for me yeah that is super cool right that is really cool so you can spend more time with them I mean again what you do with your time is is so critical in life and sometimes we don't think about it because it just starts to go it burns up and we're like where did all those years go as we as we start thinking about the whole life plan itself, 1 of the things about your deal that was interesting is um and I'll let you talk about a little bit is you were in the middle of. Um for your own like Personnel LLC building a building. At the same time we were doing your ESOP transaction so kind of we had these 2 things happeningsimultaneously um obviously that added a little more complexity to it so maybe talk a little bit about. Um the process of doing that and how you experienced that and maybe some advice on on you know simplifying it if possible, yeah so we're we built I built a new 17,000 square foot uh Warehouse headquarters for the company um and uh.

[32:58] And we financed it through you know the bank and all andit it didn't defund on me uh that that.

[33:07] You know the company uh Heinz phone and Spa had to guarantee the loan because they would be leasing it from the LLC and the bank had some problems with that you know and and the SBA had some problems with that and so it was a financing Nightmare and we got it worked out all is well that ends well, um but be wary of too many. Big Financial transactions uh all at once because banks are skiddish to begin with and it doesn't take much to uh.

[33:44] Uh upset them. Yeah it that's true I mean and giving them a lot of forward um advanced notice hey this is what we're doing on this side and and keep in mind I know like our our side we worked with the bank, pretty well and your your bank fortunately had a pretty strong ESOP team the issue I find is when the banks don't understand esops and you're like oh no you know they just don't get it they're like just so helping the bank along as as part of that process but obviously you know that made made it more interesting I guess for us but more it wasn't you know had the had the project gone off on on on time, uh we would have flown flying the radar and it wouldn't have been an issue but uhthe City of Austin in developers areat loggerheads.

[34:34] Yeah no I mean all of those all of those pieces are kind of complex um so let's talk a little bit as we kind of look at some of the closing questions umyour employees you have 70 people, um I kind of mentioned like industry-wise so how would you describe I know you started off cleaning pools how would you describe your business model at this point. It is a um it's all things inground swimming pools from maintenance to repairs to selling supplies we have a really good. Um foray into the multifamily business here in in Central Texas so we deal with a lot of apartment complexes um so it's it's it's supplies repair renovation and a little bit of construction. So tools in the ground they need us and we aim to be a a value to them yeah and you guys have really grown with Austin right because Austin we all know is Tech I mean there's just been a great City lots of story behind Austin um a lot of Californians there now I guess yeah yeah yeah we welcome them all Texans are typically friendly yeah hope you meet soon um but uh theuhsenior moment sorry uh.

[35:49] Yeah just a city growing and yeah yeah so so if if if you're in the city of Austin and not succeeding in business you you you're not trying. I mean it's the best state in the nation for business it's the best city in the best state, to be doing business yeah there's a lot of Industry coming here high-end industry that uh uh you know people are going to want to own pools or build pools so it is an awesomely great Market to be a part of.

[36:19] Your your company as it goes obviously everybody has competition what do you see as mostly you know, is is is your competition companies that are like yours that are owned by private Equity or is your competition companies like yours that are owned privately or other ESOP owned companies. No no this is this is a private Equity has come in and cleaned up uh my industry there's like 3 big private Equity outfits that are rolling up swimming pool companies. And umuh so yeah that that's my competition and.

[36:55] I am so glad to have them because you're gonna see that yeah because let me tell you yeah man we we we have no issues with employees anymore. Yeah once they know that we're employee owned and we're not corporate. They're knocking on our doors all the time we're getting the creme de La Creme of of of Staff in Austin Texas, nice it it's a and we're not poaching they're coming to us. That's actually a really good and important thing too because I think sometimes people wonder about that on the other side like hey I might do an ESOP they wonder and it may be industry specific too but I do see like your industry specifically being dominated by private Equity you know as serious competitor like anybody can kind of start up a pool company but a serious competitor their processes the way they go about it so I would say even indirectly, it has to lead to a competitive Advantage because you do have the Lion Share of good talentlong-term people less turnover. Better delivery better customer service I mean all those things are kind of inherent and um and I know we we did a good job of bashing private Equity a little bit and of course they have their place in the economic world but at the end of the day if I'm a customer, I know I'm I think I'm gonna know who I'm dealing with you know as far as the the company I'm hiring.

[38:17] Ya know and I I don't mean to bash a wholesale um private Equity but um I I think. Um especially in the service industry so with a lot of local um you know exposure that that uh ESOP is a better solution, yeah yeah I see and that and that's 1 of the and the kind of the 1 I wasstumbling on too as this idea that that some of the reasons why I'm seeing companies. They're starting to see their competitors become esops and they're like oh we should be an ESOP too so that's that's a motivator and or kind of like a you started is like we we got to do something right so in private Equity is not going on our door so it's like that combination of of convers or the decision-making process that says oh wow this is actually a long-term future um especially if you do you know want to have a legacy.

[39:09] Yeah yeah and and you know I I was never the in a in a choir uh when when I was running the business um I just you know put my head down and worked hard uh but now that you know especially once we start cash flowing with some of the the uh tax advantages I hope that we do acquire I mean I we my legacy would be even made all that more sweet if you know we we we had a large contingent of swimming pool companies that are Esau. Yeah yeah I mean that you know that's kind of part of my 1 of my final questions is if you could imagine what the company will be in in 10 years. And in 20 years what would you what would you sayI I I.

[39:57] We're 10 years okay so we're we're we're probably 15 16 million are small a year uh double that or more with maybe an acquisition or 2 and.

[40:11] A culture that cannot be beatenyou know a group of people who are working together uh. Respecting 1 another doing their jobs and uh it succeeded making a good life for themselves and their families, yeah no that's great I I kind of like that and I 20 years I mean I guess that's even harder right the crystal ball but I was thinking too like for you guys. Because I mean honestly all the debts paid off in 10 most likely right. You know and then in 20you know 10 to 20 years is like the next time frame is like okay now you're probably in a very good position. To even go geographically into new directions right so you know um or or just increase your density in in Austin as as number 1 market share what whatever but I think some of those are are helpful to Envision um the future because sometimes we get so caught up with what we've done so caught up with what we're doing.

[41:15] We have to start thinking about where we'll be and that might be more for your leadership group anyways, yeah but I I hope we're acquiring and I I I hope we're growing um Texas has lots of opportunities for that sure. They do it's a huge state in so in 20 years though so I'll be in heaven sitting with the cold beer and watching this all and I will will be excited to see where it goes. Amen need 20 years I mean Andy you're only 65 so. You know you may be you may or not who knows that part but um but you will feel in my opinion as we close like well you will feel I think. Um a great deal of satisfaction of knowing you know that that the people that helped you get here are going to be enjoying the future value of the business.

[42:06] And then then let me thank Berman Hopkins and You Phillip for all the the great advice and helping me I wouldn't be here if uh where I'm at now without your help so I'm grateful for that and uh. I would love to talk to anyone out there that is curious and wants to talk more if you've liked what you've heard today umPhilip knows how to get a hold of me. Absolutely yeah and they'll they'll send me so for that for those that do want to reach out to Andy um go to our website at journey to an esop.com and you can um send in a form and you know we'll get back to you but but Andy thanks for the time today and I'm I'm excited to stay in tune with you guys to see what happens next but it was a it was a great journey to an ESOP with peace brother thank you all right you have a wonderful day talk to you later bye bye.