EP6 - Why EOS Goes Well With ESOPs… EOS Worldwide CEO - Mark O’Donnell

I have been talking about EOS for years - so helpful to get to interview Mark O’Donnell, CEO of EOS Worldwide to discuss how Traction has made such an impact with companies executing  strategically and implementing innovation at the highest levels. The ESOP is a natural choice for EOS companies given the strong core values, culture, business processes, and most of all people leaving a long-term legacy of abundance for those that have contributed so much to get here and so much more to getting there.

Transcript

[0:11] Welcome everybody this is the ESOP guy and we are on a journey to an ESOP and Beyond we are in our fifth season of the podcast and the podcast really has been. 
 Really designed as a as a resource to help companies really understand the Employee Stock ownership plans in this the full breadth of that and what that means. 
 That we've gone through a lot of the pre- ESOP conversations we've gone through a lot of the post ESOP conversations what happens before what happens after, uh today we have the opportunity to interview the CEO of EOS and his name is Mark O'Donnell, and with that Mark thank you so much for joining us today we really appreciate the time that you're spending here with us. 
 Yeah thanks for having me my pleasure great so as we start off Mark um I guess the first question would be kind of what is your favorite movie like and why and it could be any movie any at any time of History. 
 
 [1:04] Yeah so my favorite movie is Saving Private Ryan oh okay. 
 
 [1:09] It uh and so here here's the reason why uh the first time I had a conversation about that movie was with my grandmother. 
 And um I think I was probably 20 years old 1920 years old when when that movie came out, and I was telling her about the movie and I didn't know this but uh 1 of her brothers had, uh died on in uh on the beach in in Normandy and the other 1 at Pearl Harbor and we I didn't even know she had those 2 brothers so, it it came out as oh I mean this is an important event for her and for my family history so that was. 
 
 [1:56] The impactful conversation I was able to to have with her uh and we never really talked about it again. 
 And the the second reason is you have this group of people doing seemingly impossible things I mean that opening scene is like how in the world, could ever anyone survived that sure yeah and it just shows the power of Team the power of a common mission, and if you have those things you can do pretty much anything I love that I think that makes tons of sense I remember watching it for the first time. 
 And it's like that like you said the opening scene is just so gripping and you're like. 
 
 [2:39] You know you're probably going to get shot right you're you know and I think for people in our maybe age group that we didn't have to go to war but I think 1 of the things I like about that movie too is to say it shows people the cost. 
 Of our freedom and what what people have have done in our country to. 
 
 [2:55] You know give their lives up for our freedom and and go there go to places that. 
 Are just unbelievable but and and of course it's just very well made too right so from a it is historical historical perspective so, well thanks so much for joining us um I think that a good place for us to start because I think there are some people that understand what EOS is and there's definitely some people that don't or maybe they're in the middle of thinking about. 
 EOS as a possible solution to kind of help build some some, strengthen the value and their specific ways EOS does that can you give us kind of a like if somebody's brand new to EOS like well how would you describe what EOS is. 
 
 [3:34] Yeah so I'm going to start with the, kind of the basic basic of the first principles of EOS and that is simply that is a system for managing human energy to get all the people in your organization, rowing in the same direction towards a common goal. 
 Probably part of the reason why I say prep Brian's 1 of my my favorite movies and so EOS is a complete system it helps you do 3 things we call Vision traction and healthy, so vision is giving the leadership team starting with the leadership team 100% on the same page with the vision or they're going and how they're going to get there. 
 Traction is all about creating discipline and accountability to execute, every aspect of that vision and finally healthy is creating really healthy cohesive and functional leadership teams first. 
 Because as goes the leadership team so goes the rest of the organization and we just get to the point where we got 50 got 100 you got 200 people in your business. 
 
 [4:36] We're 50 out of 50 they're seeing the same thing they're wanting the same thing they're just, crushed it their masters of execution making that Vision a reality and they're moving forward as a really healthy cohesive fun-loving team uh just providing that value to the world to themselves I mean this is a great it's a great definition I think that um 1 of the things that companies struggle with, in that 1 Thing 1 Thing I like I think back up like when I first came to EOS I was the. 
 CEO CEO of our firm and we were in the CEO Roundtable meeting every month and and we all decided to use EOS like that became like the our communication how we're going to actually communicate and be accountable to 1 another as CEOs. 
 And what I saw on my own company and I what I saw on these other companies is just the struggle to communicate what actually the CEO wants to accomplish. 
 And then not only communicated but then execute that like and I read so many business books in my career like I have an MBA and I've read like you know all kinds of business books and with a business book you know kind of get you a little bit like oh that's a great idea. 
 Right it's a great idea how do I Implement that you know and I I think what the EOS did with the traction book was like it just made something so accessible to. 
 An audience of people that were hungry for like okay we want we want this thing to grow. 
 
 [5:58] And we have a hard time with these certain things but so they have these tools in place that really do help I think specifically with things that are um, difficult and challenging so that's kind of what I noticed in terms of kind of taking what you just described and saying like that's practically real and and I've seen it in my own company where it's absolutely helpful from accountability. 
 You know to also leveraging like a a meeting like level 10 like and I remember watching Gina Wickham for the first time. 
 On YouTube and it's like doing this thing you know and I'm like oh wow that. 
 That makes sense I remember introducing that to my team and they're like what a 90 minute meeting are you kidding me we're we're so sounds like torture we're so busy already you know um, talk talk a bit about the tools for Eos and and the challenges to implement those because I think that's kind of always that was kind of something we struggled with as well. 
 
 [6:50] Yeah and just to piggyback off what you're saying earlier when I first read traction. 
 Uh I was implementing another system or at least trying to and I had a coach and everything else and it was very complicated and we were still I was uh definitely a flavor of the month I'd read the book I'd go to my peer group we'd get a new book New Concept and it became sort of this Whiplash type, uh way of thinking that I was trying to get everyone on the same page with my vision and get it make it a reality right, so when I read traction that it was my first instinct and I come from Far mind biotech use a lot of as an engineer, and we use a lot of templates I'm like oh this is like every Business book I've ever read with templates like I I understand templates I understand how how to do this now it became very implementable. 
 
 [7:44] And that's like the, when people are we shocked when they read traction is that these Concepts have been around for hundreds of years, they're going to be around for a thousand more because Gino uh in his genius is just very good at pulling out all the first principles of a concept. 
 And so everything that we do is very very simple and a lot of systems they fail, because when you have a client issue you have something going on in your business, you travel right like diet and exercise you go go on a little crip and you come back and you forgot how to work out and eat well I just got good you know and so EOS has designed so that you can execute it while you're sick in bed with the flu because it's just basic simple first principle stuff and so I just want to make sure that everyone understands that this isn't complicated, it it's it requires discipline and focus, but it's not complicated stuff you can execute on these tools while you're sick of that with the flu on vacation um out for 5 weeks you can execute these tools and so when I talk about the tools it EOS is is 3 things, it is a model it is a process and it is a toolbox. 
 
 [9:03] So I'm going to start with the model and Gino spent thousands of hours with clients before traction even saw the light of day in 2007. 
 Thousands of hours testing the tools pulling the levers finding what works and so he's cycled through thousands and thousands of tools. 
 To get down to 20 tools in the toolbox and so the model we call the 6 key components starts with vision. 
 Getting you your leadership team 100% on the same page with that Vision you do that by answering a questions and then getting it shared by all we use a tool called the VTO the vision traction organizer to do that and so we're striving to get 80% or better in that Vision component, next is people right people right seats not a unique or foreign concept. 
 But every business is unique and different we use our core values from our VTO and we use a tool called the people analyzer, and the accountability chart to make sure that we have all the right people who share your core values and they're in the right seat where they get it want have a capacity to do their job really really well. 
 
 [10:12] Uh and we Define those roles next is data that's simply having a scorecard, and everyone having a number in the business that they're accountable to deliver to the business every week and that's tied to the accountability chart and what it is that they're accountable for. 
 And so we're again striving 80% or better Perfection you never get there by 80% that's that's most of the battle. 
 And uh from there then we have the issues component which is. 
 
 [10:43] Creating this open honest transparent Lucid organization where issues rise to the top you identify them and then use a process we call IDs to identify the root cause of that issue. 
 Discuss the potential Solutions and solve it at the root so it goes away forever and ever comes back starts with the leadership team we want if you've got 200 people all 200 out of 200 people. 
 Are solving issues at the root so they they never come back as opposed to solving symptoms where you end up just playing whack-a-mole all day Nexus process documenting your handful of core processes get them followed by all and so, your cream is consistent customer experience it's scalable it's efficient, and just uh really produces great results for an organization and then finally is traction which is as you mentioned the level 10 meeting its meetings and rocks so weekly meetings quarterly meetings annual meeting, uh with the leadership team and at throughout the organization, and every person in the business has at least 1 to 3 rocks which are 90-day goals that they're accountable for, quarter after quarter after quarter so that's the model. 
 
 [11:54] The process is how we implement the tools that holistically strengthen the 6 key components and so there's a very specific process. 
 It takes most clients 18 to 24 months to implement all the tools where they start seeing this huge this flywheel start to spin people are accountable people are executing all that human energy going in 1 Direction. 
 
 [12:19] And then the last is the toolbox there's 20 Tools in our toolbox we have some supplemental tools but those 20. 
 Have been carefully meticulously chosen to produce the most results in the least amount of time. 
 So 2080 roll all over the place with hey this is the 20% that produces the 80% consistently repeatably over and over again and so that's that's the quick, yeah overview of what EOS is perfect I think it's super comprehensive too because there's so much to the program I mean you know to be able to bite size that and in such a way and I think. 
 You know I want to I want to connect the dots between EOS and ESOP you know and because this is of course the Nissan podcast. 
 Um underlying all of this you know for us to think about you know is the companies 1 of the things that company is is doing in a sense is strengthening their overall business valuation so whatever whatever they actually are sometimes companies don't measure that they measure you know other things when their kpis that measure of course how much income they make every year and they measure maybe Revenue Topline revenue or growth in Revenue um there's a lot of different kpis, I find that some don't get to that point of actually measuring and you know annual valuation um like so for instance what is the the impact of um EOS on the company when it comes to. 
 
 [13:43] Um valuation because we're going to connect that to the ESOP in a sense but also to other opportunities how often do you see companies actually measuring, their valuation as a key as a kpi. 
 
 [13:56] Esops definitely do the um little bit about my background I started in like I said in Pharma in biotech I ran I had 9 companies when I started to implement EOS on my own businesses eventually sold them. 
 Uh to to form a business partners in private Equity Group and. 
 Became an implementary I worked with 100 companies myself 500 sessions in in total uh it was a coach that had coached before uh stepping into my my role today, and just thinking about my own experience is that. 
 
 [14:33] Probably the only companies that measured value market value were esops. 
 
 [14:41] I can't think of a single company that I worked with well, they would mention that hey we want to hit a certain value we want to exit certainly plenty of the companies that I I worked with did exit. 
 
 [14:55] And a few of them started EOS, for the purpose of they didn't like their offer and we needed to increase value um to to come to mind uh 1 was a company that it was a physical therapy business they had an offer, um and it was almost half of what it is that they wanted and so the. 
 The person who made the the offer the Equity Group that made the offer just said hey look if you have some consistent processes in place if you have people that can run this business. 
 At that and instead of it being so Reliant upon in this case the doctors that were the founders the owners. 
 We're going to offer you more so they started out at 6 times they end up selling at 13 times wow in just 9 months wow. 
 
 [15:50] Uh just huge huge difference because they really just focused in on strengthening those 6 key components the 2 biggest for them was that people component. 
 Right people right seats having a hiring mechanism that can consistently bring people in lowered turnover. 
 
 [16:08] They were able to delegate and Elevate their way out of actually 2 there's 4 Partners uh 2 of them didn't see patients any longer the rest just actually gave up all the business stuff and only wanted to see patients. 
 And so that worked out very well for them both personally along with the the value and in that process piece they, didn't have a clear consistent way to bring in new business to the organization they didn't have clear processes basically every patient that came in was like the first patient Day Ever So I ever yeah yeah totally yeah and so they had to create that consistent cohesive, customer experience, that drove business serve them well you know actually got collected payment because that was the issue too yep yeah uh and so they did that 9 months they just focused down and took off, um and they were not an ESOP. 
 I had another client who uh was an ESOP and they increased their value by about 30%, valuation year after year uh running EOS and really the same Concepts I mean that they didn't do anything special, they got rid of bad businesses because they used 1 of the tools we use is a a core Focus which is your purpose and your niche. 
 
 [17:31] And use that as a filtering mechanism for new businesses that they were trying out that didn't work. 
 They got rid of the bad businesses they got rid of the customers that were not inside of their marketing strategy, we call that the 30 dozen take the bottom you know 12 year uh clients and and give them to the competition and so that those are the types of things that they did that just drove value, um along with just simply implementing EOS um and of course there's. 
 1 that didn't work which we could talk about so yeah and then I'm gonna get there too I'm what I want to do too is just connect the dots and we kind of to understand like the ESOP process for companies as we go through this because. 
 
 [18:18] What I noticed like our ESOP process starts with a valuation model and it's not a report I mean in valuation reports are difficult because people tend if I ask people like what's your business valuation you know they might say hey it's it's 6 times multiple of IBA, which everybody kind of understands but my next question is going to be like well how did you get the 6 timeslot, but so there's a lot of misunderstanding in just business-wise like people don't really understand the connectivity between, um an income approach value versus say a market approach value esops are going to lean toward income approach values which basically just says. 
 
 [18:55] Cash flow of the business normalized cash flow and the risk of the business which is basically built into a a model that says, these are your risk premiums for your industry all those stacked up to a weighted average cost of capital that's applied, in a discount rate to forecast of cash flow and and so in a sense, you you know there is a there is a value at the front end and when we start a company through the ESOP process of the establishing you know what the actual valuation is in that model because some of it's going to depend on their ability to um obviously increase IBA but what you're getting into too is the other elements of that of that uh weighted average cost of capital which is the processes of the company will directly mitigate risk, and if I can reduce risk in my in my cap rate my weighted average cost of capital, then I can actually increase the value so if I have cash flow the same cash flow for each company but the risk of that cash flow is lower than my valuation is going to be higher and so it's kind of the if you invert that that's where the multiple. 
 
 [19:59] So with a lot of brand new companies and this is kind of what I wanted to to stress and you you you did a good job of explaining the EOS process. 
 Because I see some companies jump into EOS in the middle of doing an ESOP. 
 And you're kind of better off just doing if it's 18 to 24 months Implement e EOS as you go through the initial planning phase for if it is going to be an ESOP. 
 Um because then you can kind of really understand the impact of the the valuation model before when you start and then as you get into it, because the model is going to incorporate all of those elements of that uh Mark was talking about which I think are really valuable to understand um. 
 When you you know 1 of the things I was going to say about the ESOP thing connecting to EOS 1 of the things I noticed with companies that do esops as EOS like they've spent all this this, um energy implementing you know the EOS model and. 
 
 [20:53] What happens in my opinion is you get you get through all that the company's doing so well. 
 Um but then you sell it for the higher maybe you just sell for the higher multiple and that's the goal but 1 of the values of an ESOP is you can keep going with what you're doing I mean you've you've built the EOS you've used EOS to build the company up, great people right you want them to get rewarded you've got great processes you want that just to keep going and and unfortunately I think with the financial world the Strategic buyers. 
 They're going to probably just change things you know and and I think that's the that's 1 of the links I wanted to make so, you know I know you've had a lot of experience with EOS and and we talked about like just some ESOP you experiences how have you seen that with with the EOS company's existing seeing that as an opportunity for them. 
 
 [21:41] Companies that are running on EOS that are looking for an exit you know your entrepreneurial founder you're looking for. 
 The the exit to do whatever else you want to do with your life. 
 1 of the things that we see happening quite often is you've used the tools. 
 You use your core values to hire Fire review reward recognize all your people and so you've built this culture and you've built it intentionally you love it you love all the people in it. 
 And so what ends up happening as far as we see. 
 Is it really limits the field of who that next buyer is because you love these people you love what you do you love your customers. 
 And the idea that you're going to hand it off to a strategic. 
 Who's probably going to come in and blow it up is not very attractive know then you then you say okay well what about a financial buyer. 
 
 [22:39] And that too can be destructive to. 
 The organization to those people that culture that you've built and so you got to be really careful about who that buyer is. 
 And what we see is that because of all that. 
 
 [22:58] The idea of an ESOP becomes more and more and more attractive because it's a little bit like cake and eat it too I can get the exit that I want or maybe need. 
 And I can protect these people forever yeah. 
 
 [23:15] And it just becomes just a really great marriage and we could be tax-free like 1 of the things I love I mean we don't pay any taxes like and so all that Capital gets created to pay debt off and then we can accumulate that to reinvest into more in you know whether its Acquisitions or whatever and grow, and grow with the reward of for everybody else down the road so it's, um and those things are super compelling and and most of the time I think the main barrier for esops is people just don't understand them enough. 
 And that's kind of the the mission here with the podcast is just to be able to connect the dots and I can tell you like it's not for everybody I know that like there are people and there's nothing wrong with trying to get the highest multiple. 
 Um it's your company it's like your your house or your car or whatever I mean it's yours but at the same time if you do and you do build these systems with these people they're almost like your family. 
 And you just want them to have the best possible life that they can have and protect the legacy of of the core values and the culture and the. 
 Um you know the mission even even related to your customers like what you've delivered to your customers. 
 You don't want to see that change because most companies that really succeed care greatly about their customer and the perception of the customers have so so that's why I think ESOP sits with more holistic approach to. 
 Doing a lot of things like with exit in succession and and growth and those kind of things. 
 
 [24:40] Yeah I think it's just a great great option obviously there's other ways to give Equity to people but. 
 Oh our purpose here speaking of our core Focus here at EOS worldwide is to help entrepreneurs live their EOS life, and we say helping entrepreneurs because typically that's kind of where it starts. 
 Then it goes to the integrator if you have 1 hopefully you do then the leadership team and then every single person throughout that business and so I'm clear EOS life is 5 things it is doing what you love. 
 
 [25:13] With people you love making a huge difference making an impact in the world putting a dent in the universe being compensated appropriately and having time to pursue other passion those 5 things that's what we're here to do to help entrepreneurs do that so they can help their their people do the same and I I think at ESOP is just a great way as a platform to help people in your business live their EOS life I love that I mean actually, that speaks so heavily to the people that I've helped do esops like that's exactly when we get into the the whole process we close the deal and then after the deal is done um they are experiencing something that. 
 I mean I I think for some of them it's like they don't even know what to do after they sell the company I mean you know you you obviously have like this EOS role in life which is great but they don't know what to do and they're like oh my gosh I'm not going to go to the office anymore. 
 You know I'm not going to they don't necessarily want the ownership anymore but they don't know what they're going to do what Their time and the you know they have all of this these 30 years of. 
 
 [26:23] Experience. 
 That just goes where right and so it's it's really a beautiful thing to connect that into and the flexibility of an ESOP because they could just you know keep energizing from a different perspective or a different role. 
 Um so I love that 1 of the things I I love about EOS and its kind of first time ever I really got and understood this is the role between Visionary in the integrator, and you know and you can see this with small closely held companies where you have this. 
 Just brilliant strategic person who can see the future and know like that but they're they're not great. 
 At like getting it all done right because they have just a tremendous amount of ideas but then they finally find that person that can do it but what EOS does is communicates like that's really a good role. 
 And then the other role is really good like they fit together perfectly and so talk about that a little bit because that was like 1 of the things that just a light bulb for me when I first started looking at that I'm like you know. 
 Um and I started seeing it now that I knew and how to say it like I started seeing it in like clients like oh you're that you're you are the Visionary right how you know that's just like like a light bulb so talk about that a little bit because I think that's 1 of the 1 of the main things I've seen about EOS. 
 
 [27:38] Sure uh so that uh it's been part of our system forever uh was written to Brett about in in traction. 
 And just to give you a little bit of history of how this this happened, the I think is 1964 might be 1969 Harvard Business Review introduced this role of integrator this first time that we can find that it's ever been talked about and it, but oddly enough Gino never read that article he didn't uh think about it it's just just so happened that he heard it from Michael Gerber of eth. 
 Uh on an audio cassette and he's like it described this integrator as the the person who. 
 Keeping the trains running on time if they're harmoniously orchestrating the ins and outs of the business they're the glue that holds everybody together keeps it all moving in a consistent way and he realized that he was the integrator. 
 So he was working uh for his dad with his his dad uh Floyd in uh real estate sales training business. 
 
 [28:41] And he was the integrator his dad was the Visionary he was the integrator um and that's sort sort of how he started to Kabul to cobbling together these these tools. 
 And so fast forward um he writes traction and he starts seeing this pattern over and over and over again. 
 And just like on this podcast you introduced me as the the CEO of EOS worldwide and I and I am however that's my outside title my inside title is visionary and I have my wonderful integrator Kelly Knight cool uh who is my puzzle piece and you know Gino talks about and and so do I which is. 
 A Visionary is really not a CEO um as like the Fortune 500 because they're doing both roles really, they're managing the leadership team they're you know very disciplined typically. 
 And even you know people out in the world you know you think about like Elon Musk as an example he's really a Visionary he's not a CEO even though he has the title, yeah at SpaceX he has went strong well and he has that number 2 person in the businesses that he runs that you know keep the trains rolling. 
 
 [29:51] Um Henry Ford had uh cousins I believe it was um, you know you have uh Ray Croc um yeah Donald's you know there's always these 1 and twos, uh Steve Jobs and Steve wiszniak you know you go throughout history and you see, these V Duos Visionary integrator Duos where you have the Visionary strategic head in the class Tech person and then you have the very nuts and bolts get it done execute it type person. 
 
 [30:22] And so what we're teaching the world is that it takes 2 it takes that Visionary typically the founder, they got to find their puzzle piece they got to find their integrator who is going to manage Visionaries usually great leaders not particularly great managers with all the little details. 
 
 [30:42] They need that number too to make it up make it real and then the leadership team is making it reoccur over and over again. 
 And so that it is unique to us and it's really just an acknowledgement that most Founders most entrepreneurs are Visionaries, they're not integrators and hence they're not really a CEOs even though that's what we put on LinkedIn yeah what's what's valuable about that for people, that finally realized that because I think there's a struggle kind of in the beginning where they don't really know how to even put that to words is is 1 of the things we do in the journey to an ESOP process is like trying to identify the succession plan like what is it. 
 And in this I think is 1 of the most important dynamics of this succession plan I mean you know we start getting down into the ranks I mean of course that's going to be important but. 
 You know delineating between the Visionary and the integrator and and it may be that you have, like most of the time we have a very good Visionary because they wouldn't have gotten aware but they don't have the integrator, and it's either like that's succession plan like let's bring somebody up that can or let's go out and recruit them um and if you have those 2 pieces in place. 
 
 [31:49] There's a very natural transition to ESOP that can maximize the value. 
 Because I don't necessarily even need the Visionary you know in the weeds anymore right they can be in an ESOP they'll be on the board of directors like an ESOP is governed by a board of directors. 
 Um course the Visionary integrator going to be there and then the everything else can kind of follow suit I think when you get those 2 pieces together in succession planning. 
 Um everything else kind of works because you have the right fit and Leadership and then people now underneath can know like we have confidence where we're going, that we're going to get this done and then that's where right people right you see start to fit together like you know have instead of going Bottom up you know you kind of go top down a little bit and make sure that that's that's put together correctly so I love that I think it's. 
 Important because you guys have nailed it down I think it's important for people to know and and start putting that together now you know in terms of their business models. 
 
 [32:45] And and that concept uh Gino Wickman and Mark Winters wrote the book Rocket Fuel which is uh just a deep dive into that that concept and it's the third book in the traction Library. 
 And yeah I've read that 1 too and it's just like phenomenal but that's um you know again bringing more value to the company it's amazing honestly with. 
 With that and that's and let's talk a little bit about EOS like it's so popular like I you know I know we have the conference coming up in San Diego and that you said was already. 
 Book build or and it's sold out sold out sorry guys you know it's it's up to 8 to 2025 to wait till 2025 um, I'm I'm going to get to speak at that conference so I'm excited to talk about esops directly. 
 But because like even last year I remember looking at that and the year before why is eos so popular like why why have you guys like. 
 
 [33:39] Hit the right I mean Gino's brilliant I know we can all kind of say that but why is it like what is happening in the country with this program. 
 
 [33:48] Well I think there's a a few things uh when Gino built EOS in. 
 Uh I think it was 2000 7 uh when it became the US worldwide um and and the company grew, we had a different model so we were a kind of always around but you didn't recognize us because we were membership model and EOS implementers who or the individuals now you can there's 3 ways to implement EOS maybe I'll start there yeah um you you can read the book, it is instruction manual step-by-step guide you can Implement EOS just using the book traction. 
 
 [34:32] The second thing you could do is go to our website you can uh subscribe to base camp, for 500 a month I think it is at the moment and you get all the training that an EOS implementer gets uh minus just a couple things that help them run their own business, and the Third Way is to hire an EOS implementer where they meet with you 10 sessions over a 2-year period. 
 They uh there's no contracts or anything like that so it's not like in in any way just take 1 day at a time and they're there to help teach EOS tools and Concepts, facilitate the leadership team making sure everyone's totally on the same page and uh their coach right they they work with. 
 10 2030 other companies they see the same the same game that you're playing and they can just help you play the game just a little bit better. 
 And so that's um I actually started self implementing my companies and I was like oh it's like Dr heal thyself can someone else please do this for me and uh you know and and of course there there was so much to do that. 
 
 [35:38] So uh those implementers uh had their own brand names. 
 
 [35:45] And in 2020 we became a franchise. 
 And we use that as an opportunity to consolidate the brand at that point in time we we were representative of 738 different brands. 
 
 [36:00] Uh we had 2 different communities of EOS implementers some uh came and and met in community and some were just out by themselves. 
 And so the franchise forced us to bring that all together and so we saw in the market has seen a consolidation, of all of those Brands under 1 Banner So that obviously created a bit of a a pop. 
 
 [36:24] And then we had coid um right right before that right before we became a franchise. 
 And what we realized and what companies saw is that companies that were running on EOS were more resilient. 
 
 [36:38] They survived at a higher rate, they grew in the face of adversity because they kind of realized that they've been training resilience this entire time, and they knew how to solve issues at the roots so they would go away forever they were more Nimble more innovative, than the competitive set and so you have kind of 2 things happening at once consolidation of the brand koide. 
 Companies seeing the performance of. 
 Their competitors who are running on EOS do better make better decisions grow faster take advantage and so I think that we just um got lucky well I mean no I mean I think it's just. 
 Honestly no I don't think there was luck in my opinion it was like you guys had a a very. 
 The tools work it it's a successful program because the tools work and unlike some other programs like it's hard it can be very ambiguous like how do you do it. 
 And I think everybody's got if they're you know EOS company like we are everybody's got their own story like you know we we started self-implemented, and um an implementer um or we kind of did a hybrid or whatever so I think it's it's just it works and I think word of mouth is like look this is you know, business people talk to each other like this works for us and they're going golfing and they're telling their friends like this is actually such a phenomenal program. 
 
 [38:03] Um and I think just just going back to like the the future of EOS is just like this is um helping so many companies get from. 
 Mediocrity in a sense like they can't figure out what to do to the next level right and that creates more opportunities for, you know key people and employees and all that so it's really done a great I think a great thing for our our economy. 
 So Phil philosophically I've always fundamentally believed that you know Middle Market companies smaller companies, they're the innovators like they're the ones that come in and and I'm not being like Corporate America is terrible but when you think about what a middle Market company does is they put something into the marketplace that, is creative and unique and if they're if they're going to be rewarded by being you know nichy right really kind of supporting something, and you know what happens is they get gobbled up and then they kind of get it gets kind of like built into a bureaucracy, um and that's 1 of the reasons I'm an ESOP advisor because I feel like that is what we want to protect like and EOS is only kind of what it's done is it given a tool for these companies to move up to the next level. 
 
 [39:13] And whether you know I'm not always talking about people's exit plans I mean it's we do a lot of partially stuff so. 
 How do you take what they built monetize some of the value so you know owners have like 90% of their net worth stuck in the business right. 
 How do you monetize some of that keep it moving use the tax breaks so that combination of an ESOP and EOS in my vision is like that's just a phenomenal combination because now I can get everybody in the company a stake in the value. 
 
 [39:42] And if everybody has this ownership thinking and the stake in the value then we're only they're only going to more embrace the the ideas behind you know the core values the mission um and then really get connected down into Beyond salary right because that's. 
 You know limited so so those are kind of things as I think about like the connectivity between the 2 and I do believe. 
 EOS has a great future in that um of course where you guys are now and I think it's only going to become more and more as time goes on. 
 
 [40:11] Yeah we we we hope so we have 800 EOS implementers uh as we sit here today uh we're working with over 24,000 companies and about 10 times that are using our Tools in some way, and so you know there's just a tremendous amount of adoption. 
 And we are really just passionate about helping those entrepreneurs again let their EOS life and you mentioned entrepreneurs being sort of the lifeblood behind the the global economy which I think is exactly right and we talked a lot about abundance versus scarcity, and uh Innovation and human Ingenuity and creativity. 
 
 [40:54] Is what grows the pie right I mean any problem that occurs an entrepreneur given freedom and time doesn't even really need that much Capital if any, well use their creativity to solve those problems at scale, and so we really need to continue to just support entrepreneurs all that creativity that's what creates all abundance in the world that and and. 
 
 [41:21] You're right in that when it gets sucked up into a big huge corporation that's bureaucratic, um or whatever that might be all that creativity becomes stifled and there's too many restrictions on that there's no freedom to move and to operate and to really let your unique, uh capabilities and and genetic encoding and all the things that you've been endowed with at Birth come to life and and you have to be free to do it, um and so that that's a good portion of what, we're trying to do with EOS is to unlock that abundance in in the world and get people out of thinking, in the scarcity mindset where we're trying to gather up all the resources for themselves because instead of focusing on creating new resources yep yeah and that's and that's the stuff like some people get super, fearful like with AI or new technology just like they did 20 years ago with computers and stuff so those are a few opportunities but I think the the ones that capitalize on those the most are going to be these, small clever Innovative companies that can incorporate and apply you know the new technologies and the talent level and I think a lot of the new people that come into the workforce. 
 
 [42:36] They are looking for something a little bit more than you know clock in clock out and you know having this this career they want to be part of something and that's where I feel like that that these 2 pieces fit together. 
 For Eos and Esau and we are transferring wealth you know in abundance, into the the uh middle class you know for people that are willing to be full-time committed to the to the to the company they're going to get rewarded in those in those. 
 Scheme of things so we do transfer that wealth of well into the marketplace and. 
 Like I said the IRS gives us this tax break you know being a tax-free company so all of that is just to me it was phenomenal, um so we're we're pretty much almost completely out of time but um because I could talk to you honestly on all day about this, anything kind of final wisdom for people um whether they're hey I'm I'm not a EOS yet or I'm thinking about EOS or anything else that you've seen that might be helpful for people to be thinking about. 
 
 [43:32] I think there's a there's a few things that you know if you if you're listening to this podcast chances are you're interested in misoft in some way right yeah. 
 Uh if it's a fit you should do it. 
 If you're thinking about implementing EOS you should do it and I'm not saying that from a self-serving perspective is that it's just that you deserve it. 
 You deserve to have all that human energy in your business pointing in 1 Direction executing making your vision a reality and it because if you can do that, they're going to live the life that they want to live you're going to be able to live the life that you want to live and you're going to create impact and abundance in the world that. 
 
 [44:13] Wouldn't have existed otherwise so that's what I would just leave people with um. 
 Couple couple things on like how you can get in touch with an implementer. 
 Of course you have Philip for the ESOP so you can go to EOS worldwide.com uh you can if you're looking for an implementer you can, click there find an implementer there's a directory you can search we have a team that can help find the right implementer for you uh and with you. 
 Um and also with that um every implementer because they've been hand selected the chera core values are helpers people and so the first, is a 90-minute meeting which you can just sit with your leadership team they're going to go through a 90-minute meeting it's completely and utterly free it's a help first way it's a little bit of a workshop, the worst that's going to happen is you're going to learn something and you'll come out a little smarter uh and you have no obligation to work with them and and you know they they would take you through that so don't be afraid to just, sit with your leadership team do a 90-minute meeting with them and learn something on how you can increase the value of your your organization. 
 
 [45:23] So that's the first thing uh second thing is we have a brand new book uh the people book which is dare to build an intentional culture. 
 And uh wait you're an author I saw your name on it, yes so I am the author along with Kelly Knight my integrator and CJ dubet who's our EOS implementer because we do what we say um and so she's our implementer a long long time uh friend and expert implementer. 
 Um and that's really about building those cultures that move the needle uh for you for them and uh makes that impact and so there's some good tools there to build that culture that wins in any environment. 
 Um what we've noticed just real quick is that. 
 
 [46:10] There's we see on employment really low I think part of that is just the available pool of people working and uh we've done quite a bit of research in this is that our birth rate especially in the United States and and certainly other countries, has been so low for so long. 
 That the reason unemployment's really low the reason that you can't find and recruit the right Talent is because they've never been born. 
 Wow and that's I mean so the only thing that you can do as a company is tip the scales in your favor. 
 
 [46:44] You can create an attraction model that you will have a line of of people wanting to come work for you because they just see your people and you get this word of mouth is really the same as as us works, um so you can pre-order that book on Amazon. 
 
 [47:02] Um it's coming out April 2nd um or maybe the day before the conference I'm not sure I'm pretty sure it's a second though cool so right before the conference, uh in April uh you can get that book and uh it hopefully will help you build that culture tip the scales in your favor and and saw some recruiting issues for you. 
 Um I think that's it perfect no that's great I didn't even know like we I didn't know you wrote the book so that's awesome so please you know everybody look at that book I'm sure it's going to be just phenomenal, um but but seriously thank you Mark for spending this time I think it's super helpful um for people that are listening to really understand, um some of the times I just reference EOS so I don't go into a lot of detail I just say hey you know if you do EOS you do this and that so just having 1 whole podcast dedicated to helping explain things I think is very very helpful for people so thank you again for your time today. 
 
 [47:56] Yeah thank you my pleasure great so for everybody else thanks for listening today and we will see you on this on the next step on this journey to a new song.