EP2 - ESOP Committees - Interview with employees of ESOP company Smooth Fusion

This episode is really meant to get at the heart of what defining employee communication for ESOPs.  We interview employees that are volunteering at Smooth Fusion - an ESOP company out of Texas - to participate in a newly formed esop committee.  We discuss the roles in the company, their ESOP communication strategy as well as extras that they are aspiring to that align well with company culture.  There company is on a journey to an esop & beyond!

Transcript

[0:10] Welcome everybody this is the ESOP guy and we are on a journey to an ESOP yet we're starting 2024 and its journey to an ESOP and Beyond. 
 The and Beyond part really is the expansion of this podcast which originally was intended and and really still is to help educate, folks about Employee Stock ownership plans in general, the journey to an ESOP part was the beginning part where you conceptualize whether whether or not an esops is going to work for your company and as you work through that whole process all the way up into actually closing a transaction. 
 And this year this season 5 is is really the kickoff. 
 
 [0:49] The Ambien part which is also going to include um really important topics for post dop the post dop world and then post top topics. 
 That are going to be part of consideration if somebody's thinking that they're going to do an ESOP transaction they're always going to be thinking about some of these things that are really important, um so this is an episode where we get to do some interviewing um I love interviewing because it's a super helpful for um you know to talk to real people that do real things and have real ESOP experience. 
 Um the topic today is going to be employee wealth building using your ESOP. 
 And other means but primarily because it's an ESOP podcast you know we're we're gearing towards that. 
 So the idea of of doing an ESOP really is benefiting your employees and 1 of the benefits is how do they help how does an ESOP really help build wealth um to do that we're going to interview smooth smooth Fusion out of Texas. 
 And we're going to interview specific employees um but to start with we're going to go with uh the 1 of the primary shareholders Todd Knowlton, um it was Todd's idea to do the ESOP in the first place Todd has been on a podcast so Todd welcome back to the podcast welcome to um the new season as well. 
 
 [2:05] I hope so so let me start off with this as we as we get kind of set up to kind of talk about the topic which I think is going to be really helpful for people, because there's a lot of like discussion around this topic of how does a Nissan really help employees from a beneficial stand or benefit standpoint, um let's go back to the beginning Todd why did you guys at smooth Fusion even consider doing any stop in the first place and what was what was your motivation and and how did you get there what was your your overall story. 
 
 [2:33] Yeah and you know that's kind of was an evolving story because when we first started really looking at the Esau was. 
 20 2018 probably something like that. 
 Uh when we were all in 1 building had maybe a couple of remote employees but we were a a typical come to the office kind of team and and we're in love with Texas and so you know kind of a, uh not a a technology Hub or anything like that and so 1 of my concerns early on was. 
 
 [3:08] What was going to be an exit strategy for me that would not jeopardize uh the jobs of of our team. 
 Because the the kinds of folks that were interested in buying a company like Smooth Fusion were not interested necessarily in operating in West Texas. 
 So our initial interest in ESOP really came from from that idea of. 
 What would be a good way to keep this team intact so that these folks could continue to work, we have a great culture we have a an open book kind of you know approach uh we've got employees that have been around for a long long time. 
 Because that's what kind of got it started as we learn more about esops and and started planning boards actually uh establishing a Esau uh the pandemic came. 
 And uh really changed uh the way we worked we had some of our employees that moved and and and. 
 Just kind of change the idea of well we really didn't all have to come to the same building. 
 We we established the ESOP in 2021 and uh but but really became an almost fully remote team at that point we still have several folks here in love but we have people in 5 States now. 
 
 [4:30] And so uh what was really originally motivated by our Geographic situation uh really evolved more into just understanding, uh how great uh a transition plan an ESOP can be yeah and so. 
 Really glad that that was the original thing that kind of got us looking at it because I'm not sure we would have been looking at it otherwise. 
 But what we found is even as a almost fully remote team the the ESOP just had so much value, uh for our employees and for the company and uh you know we've we've just seen a lot of benefit. 
 From beginning that uh you know transition into ESOP we're not fully there yet but we're we're growing in that every year. 
 Sounds good how many people do you have real quick on I know you're you're more remote now but employee wise I think we're at 23 or 4 folks on the team cool and then we have some contractors and folks obviously they're in the mix as well but as far as. 
 
 [5:35] Our uh full-time folks it's about 23 I think cool yeah and I think that's um sometimes people are like wandering a number of employees and does it make a difference which will, we'll talk about a little bit but um but I appreciate the like the story so people kind of as they start to listen they understand like where you guys are and why you did the ESOP and those are some questions as we as we segue into it is there anything else you want to add before we have you kind of sign off so our plan today is to have Todd tell us about the ESOP but but that really shift to the employees because I think that's where we're going to spend more of our time. 
 
 [6:07] Yeah the the only thing I'd like to add is just you know as as we as we went down this journey uh. 
 
 [6:14] You know I had actually uh had a personal interest in personal finance and things like that actually wrote a high school textbook on financial literacy. 
 And so it's always been an interest of mine and we started thinking about okay now we have this Esau we kept our 401K we still do the match we do all those things. 
 But that's sort of evolved into thinking, what could what more could we do for our employees than just provide an ESOP how could we really uh. 
 
 [6:47] Create a focus on helping our people uh, you know create personal wealth and obviously the esops part of that but uh but you know we have a we're a software development firm we've got really smart people, uh there there's a lot of opportunity for those folks to be building personal wealth on top of that and so this team which we really just started last year. 
 Uh that's really the purpose of this uh uh little team here within the company is to not just educate our folks on the ESOP. 
 But how do we really help them uh build personal wealth in a in a more holistic way so, that's what I think these folks will be good at telling you all about now I think that's great well Todd thanks for being on the first part of the podcast we appreciate it and we're we'll kind of pivot over and shift over to your guys but um have a wonderful day and we'll we'll talk to you soon. 
 All right thanks a lot all right thank thank you. 
 
 [7:49] So to kind of take on what Todd just left us with and again the idea is we want to explore this topic of of employee wealth building. 
 And I think the this is probably the first time we've done this with just employees so I'm I'm excited to be able to have a a I think more of a Frank conversation with you people um because you're there you're like on the front line and you're and you are. 
 The ones that are recipient recipients of the ESOP and so as we start off, um I want to do a quick a quick introduction for you guys so it's Gary and Blake and Laura um why don't you tell us a quick like respective roles in the company what you do and then we'll get into the topic. 
 
 [8:32] Sure I'm Gary Evans and I'm director of it at smooth Fusion. 
 And so I've been probably working for Todd at some infusion for around 16 years I think so. 
 It's been a while and um I get to handle all the um Cloud infrastructure. 
 And so I make sure when the developers build a website they can push it through all the environments successfully we host a lot of the websites we build so we make sure those those websites still go down and everything just running smoothly. 
 That's my job cool all right Gary Blake. 
 
 [9:07] Yeah uh my name is Blake Ricky I'm a project manager here at smooth Fusion uh I started to hear about 4 years ago right kind of the pandemic began so and this was 1 of my I had some jobs before this uh once I completed college this was kind of my first life I'd say quote unquote real 1. 
 Um and then starting off as a project manager it it's fluctuated a little bit but it's been about the same where, I manage uh kind of our Enterprise clients that are are you know sitefinity based uh for those who are aware of that kind of stuff, and then uh mostly just support so anything that falls through the cracks or maintenance or little things that don't, will be like a huge build or take you know lots of time to complete that'll be kind of in my wheelhouse and and I work with Gary and Laura on a you know different different type of things related to that okay perfect and Laura. 
 
 [10:02] Yeah my name is Laura Story and I am a I'm a QA lead at Smith fusion and, really what that is is a focus on quality assurance so the developers build the website and I look at it find the bugs send it back to them um. 
 I've been a smooth Fusion for 15 years I think and and what they call a boomerang employee which I started out and. 
 But was there for a couple years took some time did my own thing and now I'm back and so I've seen a lot of changes in the company and um. 
 Boards in different hats and um participated in different roles uh been on different committees and so. 
 
 [10:55] I am I'm new to the to the wealth building team but not new dismantle perfect well great well I'm so glad to have you guys on the podcast and, I think the place I wanted to start when we when we have and I'll give you kind of some background here we do a lot of work to create esops that's our practice and when we finish doing the closing 1 of the things that we try to do is we try to help the company, um with some of these post ESOP issues and 1 of those things that we try to help them do is create a committee. 
 Um and it's called a lot of different things but the committee is really more of a communication ESOP communication committee and it's usually made up of employees that, either show a strong interest in understanding the ESOP um are very good at like communicating out to the other employees um how would you guys like with that kind of thing well how would you. 
 Kind of Define your your committee or how would you what would you call it specifically and I don't want to I mean we have certain names we've been busting through like wealth building and all that but what what's your your actual title of your of your committee or are you calling it that. 
 
 [12:00] Our our committee is officially called The Wealth building and ESOP team okay and so yeah big part of it is what you said which is ESOP communication ESOP education um celebrating things around the Esau, um that's a huge part of what we do but I think as tight as I already mentioned we added on that wealth building part because not only is the East Africa well building tool but um we want to, educate people on other ways they can build personal wealth and just all the options out there for um just helping grief financially stable employees so it it's more encompassing than just the ESOP oh and our our mission I guess efficiently would be to provide knowledge and guidance for the Esau and for personal wealth building outside of smooth Fusion. 
 That's kind of our sustained sustained mission that we came up with to I love it I love it and it's important like I know sometimes our mission statements and all that people get lost in the like it is important to to document. 
 
 [13:02] Something to give you guys a a you know a sense of like this is what we're really trying to accomplish so when you ask your the question at the meetings, after in the meetings or during the quarter through the end of the years like are we accomplishing this like how do we measure that and and so, um I want to start with more of culture questions related to the company because I think that's such an important element. 
 Of esops so 1 of the reasons people come companies want to do an ESOP is they want they've got a good culture they want to retain a good culture and they want to keep that culture going you know long after the the exit of the shareholders, um how would you describe your culture. 
 
 [13:44] Um in the company and and I know you guys have been there prior to the ESOP in 21 right how would you describe it before the ESOP and then after the ESOP or would you would and also would you have any distinct differences, between the you know before and after type of thing and Gary Blake Laura you just jump in however you feel led to to answer that. 
 
 [14:05] Sure I think um I can start to speak to that is I think we've always had a very friendly culture and uh it's been a real we we've always felt like a team, there's there's something about since the ESOP that feels even more cohesive um this past fall in October we had a fall Summit and, we were able to gather the remote employees and all of us spent 3 days together and having things like, presentations and breakout sessions which was great but also more personal stuff like we bowled together and we had meals together and, so it was great because we got to know some of the remote employees better um those kinds of people that we don't get to have water cooler talk with and. 
 So it just it feels like we've always had a great team but it's really become even more uh more of a cohesive culture. 
 And and and to be honest that's a hard question just so you know because when you say culture it's like well how do you you know how do you grapple with defining it and it's like but what you did is perfect because like friendly, and it's cohesive you know those key words always kind of clue in people and I think. 
 Part of measuring culture sometimes is when you bring a new person into the culture. 
 
 [15:33] And 1 of the things I always look at is if they're not going to like this is a hiring decision and a retention decision if they're not going to fit your culture, I don't care how good they are they're not going to last in in your company and that might not be like you know they may everybody may want that to work but it's not going to work I've learned that years and years of just like hey. 
 Um they're they're great people but they just don't fit and so um. 
 What I heard you say too is like you're able to that culture is growing and more cohesive. 
 And I think part of it is since the esops there it gives you something to bind um. 
 To uh kind of rally behind which would be kind of part of what we'll talk about as financial literacy the growth of the valuation some of those types of, topics are going to be important um but ultimately you like to work together if you're if you're having fun together and being remote is important element here too because there's a lot of companies that have more and more remote employees. 
 
 [16:33] But being able to get together in person of course is is really helpful as well um so how do you as as we go into the committee I had some questions about like, how you're so it's the 3 of you guys and you have a mission that's very clear um how often do you meet you know some just practical logistic questions how often do you meet. 
 Um what are your meetings like and what are you trying to like as you do this like how what are you trying to accomplish and how do you track the the success of your committee. 
 
 [17:06] Right our so first we'll start and say we're learning uh you know right along anybody else who's trying to do something like this okay um so we've been doing this just I mean really this committee started in 2023 so not quite a year. 
 
 [17:21] When we try to meet once a month at least once every other month. 
 
 [17:26] And you know we try to just lay out all right this this is our mission okay we know that so then so then what are we going to do how are we going to educate people around the ASAP what we know statements are coming out you know maybe in July so, so that we plan a little celebration or or something like that and we know you know Todd might have a few ESOP topics he wants to talk about, so then in a couple months we'll we'll say all right let's have a little ESOP education event um and maybe we have some new employees by that time so we. 
 We'll start the basics and talk about what is an esot mean and um then then only the wealth building side we just tried to get together and brainstorm ideas, that might be interesting and relevant for people you know what are some of the, common ways to invest your money um outside of work and outside of an ESO well real estate you know of a single family rental home is a good 1 so let's, let's bring in somebody that's done a lot of that and have them talk about it or stock market investing or you know we've just tried to think of how how can we educate people that's a big part of what we do, on the wealth building you need to stop team is just education and keeping it in front of people right to say don't forget about the Esau but don't don't forget about these other ways you can build personal wealth outside of some fusion, that's really good yeah first off I mean and this is something I I'm going to tell you I think it's very unique to you guys that you're doing. 
 
 [18:50] Education around all wealth building as opposed to I think the the tendency with ESOP committees. 
 
 [18:57] Um is to get Focus heavily on the ESOP because the you know, I've been put on this committee and I got to know everything about the ESOP so the fact that it's such it's a broader picture I think it's it's something that's probably helpful for people listening, to think you know that you can really kind of do a lot more than just the ESOP, um 1 of the 1 of the pros and cons I mean the pro of an ESOP is that you get to participate in the value of the business the con is it's really going to be a long-term process it's not it's we call like a marathon it's not a Sprint. 
 
 [19:31] Um so there needs to be other aspects like your 401k but also you know as people start thinking about opportunities for other ways to build wealth, um I haven't come across that in other companies because I do think most companies are. 
 Um concerned mostly with the ESOP like and I've titled it I like the you've titled it um more of the wealth building. 
 And because it gives you the broader range so that's just more of a comment um how so with within I know you have respective roles. 
 Um I guess 1 question people are going to wonder is like. 
 You know who first off you guys are are Rank and file you're part of the company you're involved you got jobs that you got to do. 
 
 [20:14] Um why is it that you guys are on the committee as opposed to other people like what's the difference between I'm not saying you're better or worse I'm just saying what, what is it about you and was it more of a volunteer type of thing or did Todd tap your shoulder or how did you get there and and what do you bring into the committee I guess. 
 From a skill set. 
 
 [20:35] Um well yeah from my perspective uh so I I'm probably the newest here as far as the committee not and 1 of the newest here at the company, um but when I started here during the pandemic it was kind of you know pretty shaky pretty scary situation the dogs have worked for were kind of just typical regular ones but you know and not to answer your previous question but. 
 The culture here was so amazing and everyone the reason we were so successful in our day-to-day is just people were good at helping each other out and things needed, and then kind of for me personally once we got the ESOP it was kind of a shift as far as not just. 
 
 [21:13] Doing it because you're supposed to and it's alright this is our job and all that but it was also like we're all working towards the same goal now it's you know building the wealth the company, and then for me personally it was kind of a shift just overall in my head as far as wealth building in general as far as. 
 
 [21:30] We're doing this with my job occupation as a whole why not do this and other aspects of my life so for me it's not that I came with all this education and all this you know, tools to help my co-workers or anything I was more like I want to learn and I want to be uh educated and it seems like, I I got a really good opportunity in working here and then another 1 with a shifting to the ESOP so I figured I'd take another 1 and enjoy this committee so uh I just didn't it's been a great opportunity I've been learning a ton uh so that's. 
 I I hope I answered your question there no you totally did honestly I think it's it's such a good way to think about it like you're better off. 
 I get that you're like you're not like the wealth-building expert. 
 And then and I didn't want to position I'm glad you're not honestly I mean if you are then okay what but the point is like you're just part of the team and how bad how much better for you to learn it and teach it to somebody else. 
 As opposed to and somebody in your passionate about it I would say that obviously you care about it um and I think employees, need people like you guys I mean I mean because there are some employees that are just waiting for like I don't really know and and so for you to be organized like this, um it shows to me um 1 thing that's kind of common with esops is that the companies care about their people. 
 
 [22:50] And they the shareholders have when you do look at options they do have choices they can sell to a third party. 
 You know they could bring in Venture money and grow I mean all these different ways that. 
 That don't really consider what the life of the employees going to look like after the fact so esops in general are like that. 
 Um I think for you guys there's like a a another element to this that you don't just care about them and you're really trying to pull people together, authentically trying to better their lives beyond just the ESOP. 
 Um and I think that's that's a a great Testament to your culture you know that can again can't be just defined with 1 key word like you were friendly or cohesive there's a there's a passion and a and a compassion to how you guys are working with with your people. 
 Um how how often do you guys get as uh from the employees I mean I know you're going to have like I'll just hypothetically say you have a topic Todd says Hey I want you to talk about you know this element of financial literacy. 
 
 [23:49] How often you get a lot of questions from people when it comes to well how often you get the questions and what would the questions be from your other peer employees that you guys get. 
 And Gary Laura Blake whoever feels led to answer that. 
 
 [24:06] Yeah so I think we have received the most questions just that specific events that we have. 
 Um I don't know that we have you know oh opened it up to say. 
 
 [24:20] Everybody kind of gets feedback on what what you want to learn about I think we'll get to that point, I think that's a that's a good place for us to be is tell us some more things you want to learn about but right now we've really just been the idea generation and okay let's. 
 You know these are things that we're interested in and these are things we know a little bit about and so let's put it out there let's bring in a guy to talk about this and then of course. 
 At the end of each session or each education event we have we have questions and yeah people ask questions and I I like that because you get to see wow people are more interested in this kind of stuff then you might think in fact when you were talking about um people. 
 
 [25:02] Um just trying to learn everything they can about an Esau and be that team, it's funny because the the opposite is really easier it's it's easier to talk more about other ways to build welcoming the ethopia educate on the Esau but it's it's these other wealth building tools that quite frankly are also interesting but are sometimes easier to talk about I love it I love the whole whole all-encompassing thing but yeah I think I think people are so interested that they will give feedback and they will ask a lot of questions as we as we move on and evolve as a team and a company, yep I agree yep the the main thing too with an ESOP I mean we if we focus in on the role that you guys play um, when it comes to educating you know this group of people whether they're remote or you have in-person meetings. 
 
 [25:55] Is and I think Todd started the conversation related to what we call financial literacy so if we Define that term financial literacy is like. 
 Hey how do I understand how the financial financials work right so the variables for the ESOP everybody understands like a 401k you put your money in there and the 401K grows because the the stock prices are growing. 
 Um or the mutual fund value grows or whatever so there's a there's a growth potential to put my money in the 401K and it obviously it works similar to in an ESOP except for we have a concentrated. 
 Equity which is the stock of the company and so the the variable there for people to get is. 
 Um Financial but all these other things all these other aspects to it so the value of the business itself is is derived, from understanding obviously the cash the company's cash flow grows you're going to have grow in value, but there's other aspects of that that I think are helpful um when you guys work through. 
 Those types of things with your employees when I when I'm getting to is like this idea of. 
 Um a long-term a longer-term process to help them kind of understand the basics of how the business works but there are things in your business for instance like um that are just common sense like if you have a customer and the customer is extremely happy with the work that you've done. 
 
 [27:22] The more of those types of things that happen and add up the better and the better the value of the business essentially so that these non-financial elements to educating your people that I think are just more like common sense if if we reduce our costs. 
 And you know we have less costs related to delivering what we're doing on an annual basis, clearly your value is going to go up so um so keeping that in mind I mean we have financial and non-financial things um the question I have is more about in your education related to the ESOP value itself, how do you how do you work through that or how are you thinking about working through that in 2024 kind of picking up on what you guys have been doing in 2023. 
 Uh because I think that's a that's a real Target thing that needs to happen with your people um so that their the light bulbs start going on. 
 You know as owners we call them beneficial owners as owners think about the business, these are employee owners and so we want them to think the same way yeah harder than, 2023 when this was this committee was formed and just talk a little bit about how part of our culture is transparency and so. 
 Even when Todd was thinking about starting the ESOP he. 
 He started talking to all of us very early on and. 
 
 [28:47] They even the leadership team sent out a survey about an ESOP where the employees on board. 
 How interested were people and I think the results of the first 1 were sort of a mixed bag and then. 
 Todd really made it a mission to educate the employees and give regular talks about what ESOP meant and and then they repeated the exact same survey. 
 Um I don't know what ten months later or something and and it was amazing how it really went from sort of. 
 Uh people were ambiguous about it to um fully on board so just to point out the importance of the, the education from the very beginning yeah I love that or that that's very helpful for people too because there I think people wonder how should we go about this in the early stages and that was before the ESOP right so he got everybody on the um you know at least educated to say hey this is what we're thinking. 
 Um and I love the idea it was an anonymous survey is that what he did or. 
 I think so most of our surveys usually are yeah yeah so yeah no so so that's important and I think that helps to kind of build. 
 What you guys are trying to do and what you're trying to do in my opinion is is carry the Baton that Todd started. 
 
 [30:07] And as you get into these um conversations with people, um what sort of things do they when we're talking about just the ESOP you know what sort of things do they want to to know or have you hit hit that yet with your your employees like, obviously Todd when he did the survey he had a mixed, result and then it came back and it was much stronger he obviously had some feedback or conversations around some of those topics um I'm wondering like for you guys what sort of topics are you guys running into when it comes specifically to the ESOP. 
 
 [30:40] Yeah I think 1 that just immediately hits these people want to know, how what they're doing affects the value of the company you know because it's clear that it's the company's more valuable, well that's that's that means you own something that's more valuable right that's more money in your pocket ultimately uh in the future and so everybody's in agreement that we want the company to be more valuable, and so it's kind of back to your question right before this is how do you associate the day-to-day actions. 
 
 [31:17] With um margin if you will right so Todd talks a lot about margin we got all this Revenue coming in and we got all these expenses going out so the bigger the margin well at the end of the year when the company gets value. 
 That margin is bigger, the company is worth more money and so how do your actions every single day like you set up a happy customer well not just 1 but 10 in a row right how how is that affecting margin how is that well those kind of things what we have to keep in front of people and that's what people want to know well when I'm sitting here writing code, um how can I do a better job at increasing the value of the company and and thereby my stock in in my wealth right so, that's a that's a huge huge part of this is educating people tying the value of the company their day-to-day actions and I think, I think we're doing it I think it's just a a a Non-Stop continual deal that's why we need a a team to think about it and continually do it. 
 Now I like that I'm glad that you shared that because I think that that's what people think for the most part um. 
 As far as trying to connect the dots between what they do and I think it's hard when you have obviously the more employees you have the more difficult it it is to understand like how 1 person can affect, the valuation the truth is that it's like a a an engine in a car I mean you have all these different systems all these different things happening at the same time that make that car go faster. 
 
 [32:44] And it's it's making sure you have all the right, you know oil and everything's kept up in the maintenance and you know if 1 thing breaks down the whole thing breaks down and it's the same thing with a company you have to make sure that all of those are in tune, um and I think part of what I experienced you know because I am a business owner and I've so and I do ESOP work so I kind of know and I've I've lived that. 
 That years of stress of like oh what's going to happen with payroll what's going to happen with this you know you you you wake up at night thinking about the business and start staring at the ceiling fan you know and. 
 
 [33:22] And not that I want the employees to stress out but there is a sense of um connection between this really does matter at the end of the day more than hey I was just getting a paycheck before now I really am building some, some vat long-term value and. 
 There's a nice combin like I would say a balance between not freaking out about every little thing as as you know some owners might have. 
 Ultimate responsibility the owner the business has gone through transition but at the same time feeling a little bit of the pain when things don't go well. 
 You know as you go to the your participant statement meeting each year if things are not going up. 
 With that what you think they should be um then there should be a little bit of pain spread out so that there is, a um hopefully a unilateral and a unified change that everybody starts to see you know. 
 Um 1 question I always ask people too is is they think about this like because they are connected to the costs how because if you hire a new person right. 
 
 [34:24] The reality in an ESOP company is that's a new person who becomes eligible and then starts taking allocations, how do you guys work how does that how does that come across in your employee group how do you guys look at that because that's got to be a you know 1 of those things you you have to look at it different now than you did before. 
 Um is that something that you've talked about or or worked through. 
 
 [34:48] Now from my perspective uh into some other co-workers that I've spoken to it's not necessarily thought of as uh taking pieces from the pi more as like. 
 
 [35:00] Increasing the capacity of what we can be so it's not like there's this fixed amount to where we can grow to and and my perspective, the idea is that there's no limit to what we can grow to now so why a bottleneck ourselves to you know this, limit of you know and I don't know how how much people we actually want to you know become or how big we want to become there is something to say about uh keeping it relatively small um but I don't think it's necessarily the mentality of taking Pieces away but it's more of you know adding to what we can be. 
 
 [35:36] Know and I think that's good that's healthy I think that it's kind of as you wrestle through that thought it's like obviously you don't want to hire somebody that's not going to add value to the team. 
 
 [35:49] Obviously that'll be like oh my what are we doing right we're not the government and I can say whatever I want about the government. 
 It's my podcast but you know like there's people in like like why are you even you know why are you even have this job because you're not doing anything right but so in an ESOP business like they need to add value right, but at the same time if you don't you know it's a it's a business decision and this is where an owner of a business has to think about like do I hire that person take on the, the additional expense yes I should or no I shouldn't you guys are in the same boat and I think it's it's important to be um. 
 You know obviously supporting the growth of the company. 
 But you're also like I'm not going to hire somebody that's not going to be valuable to the team um especially somebody that doesn't fit into your culture have you guys ran into any hiring issues or has it been kind of smooth since 21. 
 
 [36:39] I think we have had some great recent hires and I think the leadership uh does a a really good job of. 
 
 [36:48] Targeting and finding people that fit our culture and, so I was actually surprised to learn that last year we had zero turnover so wow I think that's extremely unusual even even for a low turnover company like us and so, I think you were asking about pre ESOP and posts I think that's a difference is really just that retention rate and yeah um I think all the people that have been added to the team have really. 
 Added value perfect yeah quick question too we're getting closer to the end um I know some of our clients will use after we do the ESOP we'll use engagement surveys are you guys using engagement surveys, right now um and if you're not we can talk a little bit about it but I'm just curious if if you're working through those types of things like you did the survey on the other stuff. 
 
 [37:42] Yeah how so we do a culture team survey every year that asks oh man a whole bunch of questions. 
 Ranging from just lots of different areas and things we asked about we don't do a specific wealth building in ESOP kind of Engagement survey yet but yet we'd be happy to learn more about it and see if it's something we should be doing yeah now I think I think um the probably your culture team survey is very helpful. 
 Um the idea behind engagement is as there's been lots of books published about Employee Engagement. 
 Um there's programs about Employee Engagement all that but there's very I think there's the very specific engagement related to employee ownership and so there's things that, that we're seeing companies start to gravitate we have a person on our staff that helps do that with clients as well um she came out of the HR world but it's it's trying to ask those questions. 
 Um so it's not like you replace what you're doing you might just add to it to get some more information about um. 
 
 [38:47] Specific to like the how the employee ownership piece affects the engagement of the person and measuring that I believe is a really maybe a critical aspect of being able to show what's Happening from year to year. 
 Um so similar to your profit line right so if I'm profit line grows we know we're growing in value. 
 My employee engagement as it goes up right I know that we're accomplishing some of the things um that we want as a as a committee. 
 Um so just some things Food For Thought to think about I mean again you're you're like you said you're relatively new to that but at the same time, um I think you're doing a phenomenal job even just doing the culture team stuff what what do you do with the culture team survey information like how do you guys. 
 
 [39:32] Um is that just go up to leadership or what's the response to those types of things. 
 
 [39:39] Cars yeah go ahead yeah so we we usually uh we will present all the data that, surfaces at a company meeting and will show. 
 Usually the difference between the current year and then the past year and see if there's any changes are there any pain points are there things that we need to be paying attention to where are the improvements um, and what do we need to be focusing on so yeah we uh. 
 The the culture team digests the information first but then we we present it to the whole company. 
 Yeah okay cool yeah let me ask you 1 question too on your 3 people in you know Lori I think you came on recently is that true. 
 
 [40:29] What's happening even attended a meeting this will be your first meeting we're actually having a meeting right now um. 
 What what do you what's the optimum number of people in your in your committee are you guys good at 3 do you feel like that's a good number do you feel like you're going to add more people or um what what do you feel like that's. 
 Going we have yeah we have 1 more so the guy named Stephen is also on the team so they're at 4 of us. 
 And that feels pretty good and we had another guy, rep for Laura so we had 4 of us even from the beginning um and you know Todd is sort of a. 
 Tons and goes I mean we run things by and he gives us a lot of information so it's 5-ish with Todd but I don't know the company of 25 people for for Phil's good yeah yeah I like that number I did too I mean I think it's probably going to be unique each each company that thinks about like what they who are the people are, you know it certainly takes time out of your schedule so you guys have to commit extra time to this so you're you're actually giving something back to the company as opposed to I'm sure. 
 God's not paying you extra money to do this um maybe is I don't know um but the point is is that it is a commitment and you know you want to have like a sense of. 
 
 [41:44] Getting things done but at the same time you've got jobs to do so you want to have a balance between between all of that um there might be is there is their thoughts around. 
 Rotating if other employees want to get involved in this or are you guys open to that type of thing. 
 
 [42:01] Yeah we we've talked about that very thing is at some point we'll we'll want to rotate and and put it out there and um haven't, talk about just a blanket email but more like hey let's ask so and so if they want to be a part of it and uh oh we have another guy sorry no we have 5 Joe on the team too sorry let's follow that's great yeah. 
 Yeah poor Joe Poor Joe yeah sorry Joe. 
 He will listen to this because he's gonna be like I just got back from vacation and I was like Joseph uh where is Joe where is Joe I love the mystery behind it now it. 
 
 [42:39] A poor Joe, um no that's cool and I again I don't know for me I don't think there's a night there's a magic number to this I think it's got to work with your organization and you guys got, really love what you're doing you know I think that's the 1 of the things about the podcast I just love doing it I mean I love doing ESOP work but I really love this probably more and all that comes across you know. 
 Genuinely what what I would love to do, is do another interview next year and to say hey what what did you guys work on you know and and look at the changes so if we kind of finalize the question you're like what do you what do you want to accomplish in 24 with your with your ESOP wealth building committee. 
 
 [43:18] And then I'm going to hold you accountable next year I'm going to be like all right well did you guys do that, I think that'd be great for us too yes Margaret so it will make coming we're feel like we're a little raw on this 1 uh and then just to see the. 
 
 [43:32] Where we can go for the next 1 cool. 
 
 [43:36] So do you want to did you want specifics and yeah because I'm a business person like and and we're recording this so like you know what now of course I'm just being I'm being kind of funny but. 
 Is Are there specific, you know I know you have you've given me a good overview of things you're doing but are anything that you want to accomplish goal wise like like by 20 by the end of the 2024 year we want this to happen what would you how would you answer that question. 
 
 [44:01] Yeah for sure the things we've already talked about is um Tier 1 2024 we're offering the they bring deep Financial Peace University um to all employees and we did that late, oh man 10 years ago probably at smooth fusion and so it's really I think a good fit for the wealth building in ESOP team, and we're going to say if you complete the whole course then soon as you will pay for it um if you don't then you know you just pay for it yourself but I think that's a cool deal with a little bit of incentive um that's a a really great tool I think everybody should go through at least at least once in their lives. 
 
 [44:38] Um we've talked about at least having 2 of those um talks on specific other ways to build wealth like real estate or stock market or things like that. 
 And then we've got a guy Joe who we mentioned earlier Joe um he he came from the world of finance and so at least once a quarter he's going to do a talk, on various Financial topics so he did 1 the other day on his risk you know like what is the risk mean in your financial life and so just I think those 3 big areas continue to do these self-education um a couple of. 
 Speaking events where we bring somebody in to talk about a topic. 
 And then some specifics on finance and then the the Dave Ramsey financial piece if we can accomplish all that I think we'll we'll be pretty pleased um I'm I'm excited that's great I think that's good because I think it's nice to know like if you go back through like these are things we're going to do you're accountable to that and then you come back to the next year you'll get we did that or we did something more than we even anticipated. 
 Um so we'll be excited to do that next year get Joe on and then the other guy I can't remember his name um so that'll be super helpful but, but thanks for your time today guys I really appreciate it you're um you you never know with this so as we go into the release this podcast um. 
 
 [45:55] You know you may you know if you're open to it people might contact us and say hey we have questions for you guys I mean if you're um you know because we are a bit of an ESOP community and and it's a friendly calm you know camaraderie between companies and um you know I think you're you're way ahead of some companies and what you're doing and so I'm I'm excited to see what what comes from that. 
 
 [46:18] So Grant you so for everybody else listening thanks for listening to 1 of our first episodes of Journey to an ESOP and Beyond, um you can find our content on journey to an ESOP cam, if you have more interest or questions please if you do like this podcast you know send it to a friend and rate and review the podcast that's super helpful for people as you're looking at, the resources they need so with that everybody have a great day and we'll see you on our next step on this journey to an ESOP.